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	<title>Comments on: The Old Math of Poetry (Part One)</title>
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	<link>http://www.hydramag.com/2010/03/07/the-old-math-of-poetry-part-one/</link>
	<description>Literary arts magazine dedicated to the wayward, ordinary, bizarre, everyday, and the impossible.</description>
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		<title>By: Jose-Luis Moctezuma</title>
		<link>http://www.hydramag.com/2010/03/07/the-old-math-of-poetry-part-one/#comment-2876</link>
		<dc:creator>Jose-Luis Moctezuma</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Apr 2010 10:19:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thehydramag.com/?p=3084#comment-2876</guid>
		<description>&quot;Let us conclude with a discussion of the problems of voluntary poverty... The ideal of voluntary poverty, which rejects utilities, can be readily understood. It is easy to see that an indefinite multiplication of utilities, the means of life, may end in an identification of culture with comfort, and the substitution of means for ends; to multiply wants is to multiply man&#039;s servitude to his own machinery. I do not say that this has not already taken place... All possessions not at the same time beautiful and useful are an affront to human dignity. Ours is perhaps the first society to find it natural that some things should be beautiful and others useful. To be voluntarily poor is to have rejected what we cannot both admire and use; this definition can be applied alike to the case of the millionaire and to that of the monk.&quot; -- Ananda K. Coomaraswamy, from &quot;The Christian and Oriental Philosophy of Art&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Let us conclude with a discussion of the problems of voluntary poverty&#8230; The ideal of voluntary poverty, which rejects utilities, can be readily understood. It is easy to see that an indefinite multiplication of utilities, the means of life, may end in an identification of culture with comfort, and the substitution of means for ends; to multiply wants is to multiply man&#8217;s servitude to his own machinery. I do not say that this has not already taken place&#8230; All possessions not at the same time beautiful and useful are an affront to human dignity. Ours is perhaps the first society to find it natural that some things should be beautiful and others useful. To be voluntarily poor is to have rejected what we cannot both admire and use; this definition can be applied alike to the case of the millionaire and to that of the monk.&#8221; &#8212; Ananda K. Coomaraswamy, from &#8220;The Christian and Oriental Philosophy of Art&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Jose-Luis Moctezuma</title>
		<link>http://www.hydramag.com/2010/03/07/the-old-math-of-poetry-part-one/#comment-2875</link>
		<dc:creator>Jose-Luis Moctezuma</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Mar 2010 10:53:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thehydramag.com/?p=3084#comment-2875</guid>
		<description>Esteban: thank you for returning the conversation to its essential rubric. A poet&#039;s &quot;sharp, heavy cupidity&quot; may curse or it may save, contingent upon the poet&#039;s willingness to act upon the subtractive values of restraint and puncture.  Statistical increase is pernicious when it lampoons love&#039;s fertility -- because -- &quot;only those in love may speak of it.&quot; Antonioni&#039;s famous thesis: &quot;Eros is sick. Man is uneasy. Something is bothering him.&quot; What bothers him is the tentative absence of having anything definite to say, strangely, at a time when humankind has achieved standards of communication which allow him to say everything and anything at once. &quot;Thus moral man who has no fear of the scientific unknown is today afraid of the moral unknown.&quot; If love had perished, it would have to be reinvented by those who suffered not its pangs but its vacancies and disappearances.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Esteban: thank you for returning the conversation to its essential rubric. A poet&#8217;s &#8220;sharp, heavy cupidity&#8221; may curse or it may save, contingent upon the poet&#8217;s willingness to act upon the subtractive values of restraint and puncture.  Statistical increase is pernicious when it lampoons love&#8217;s fertility &#8212; because &#8212; &#8220;only those in love may speak of it.&#8221; Antonioni&#8217;s famous thesis: &#8220;Eros is sick. Man is uneasy. Something is bothering him.&#8221; What bothers him is the tentative absence of having anything definite to say, strangely, at a time when humankind has achieved standards of communication which allow him to say everything and anything at once. &#8220;Thus moral man who has no fear of the scientific unknown is today afraid of the moral unknown.&#8221; If love had perished, it would have to be reinvented by those who suffered not its pangs but its vacancies and disappearances.</p>
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		<title>By: Steven M.</title>
		<link>http://www.hydramag.com/2010/03/07/the-old-math-of-poetry-part-one/#comment-2874</link>
		<dc:creator>Steven M.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Mar 2010 04:26:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thehydramag.com/?p=3084#comment-2874</guid>
		<description>&quot;At the touch of love, everyone becomes a poet&quot; - Plato

Of course, love comes frequently, fervently, tragically, to a poet. So the real question lies in the ability to find pristine love, and this is the true poet. 

The pernicious glutting of writing poetry out of mere amusement, (that everyone seemingly has as an instrument of being a pure romantic out of the sake of boredom), does not only lack the humble responsibility for reading poetry in itself, but the pains that comes with being a poet: perpetual love. With the comforts of the modern day and anesthetic, zombie-like living of the monotonous routine -- having the burdens of the emotions that char the weary soul of a true poet, and according to the article, the indigence that is attached to it -- one cannot truly desire to be a poet. It is the pain to love that these &quot;poets&quot; lack when they write. 

Oh! how pristine love is categorized into something untouchable in the today and probably the morrow in society; a poet does find love to burn fast in its intensity through his eyes, and this love burns out physically and emotionally in all it&#039;s violence and vigor, but continues to live solely through the eloquent words of the paper. Society has made love impossible, unachievable, but still vomit poetry, therefor making it dispensable. 

The sharp, heavy cupidity of a poet&#039;s nature that enables him to write is one factual thing: it&#039;s not something we&#039;d like to bear.

The modern day poet is left, inevitably, to obscurity and in this, we have deprived him of the only thing he has.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;At the touch of love, everyone becomes a poet&#8221; &#8211; Plato</p>
<p>Of course, love comes frequently, fervently, tragically, to a poet. So the real question lies in the ability to find pristine love, and this is the true poet. </p>
<p>The pernicious glutting of writing poetry out of mere amusement, (that everyone seemingly has as an instrument of being a pure romantic out of the sake of boredom), does not only lack the humble responsibility for reading poetry in itself, but the pains that comes with being a poet: perpetual love. With the comforts of the modern day and anesthetic, zombie-like living of the monotonous routine &#8212; having the burdens of the emotions that char the weary soul of a true poet, and according to the article, the indigence that is attached to it &#8212; one cannot truly desire to be a poet. It is the pain to love that these &#8220;poets&#8221; lack when they write. </p>
<p>Oh! how pristine love is categorized into something untouchable in the today and probably the morrow in society; a poet does find love to burn fast in its intensity through his eyes, and this love burns out physically and emotionally in all it&#8217;s violence and vigor, but continues to live solely through the eloquent words of the paper. Society has made love impossible, unachievable, but still vomit poetry, therefor making it dispensable. </p>
<p>The sharp, heavy cupidity of a poet&#8217;s nature that enables him to write is one factual thing: it&#8217;s not something we&#8217;d like to bear.</p>
<p>The modern day poet is left, inevitably, to obscurity and in this, we have deprived him of the only thing he has.</p>
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		<title>By: Jose-Luis Moctezuma</title>
		<link>http://www.hydramag.com/2010/03/07/the-old-math-of-poetry-part-one/#comment-2873</link>
		<dc:creator>Jose-Luis Moctezuma</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Mar 2010 04:25:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thehydramag.com/?p=3084#comment-2873</guid>
		<description>Dear &quot;Bob&quot;: thanks for your gracious, lovingly crafted parody! I see that you read my post quite carefully and managed to filter out all the rubbish from the gold. I admit that the cleverest reduction is: &quot;Education can be walking around and eating dirt. Back in the day, people didn’t get paid to write no poems. So they ate dirt, and were educated.&quot; Next time I should use a dictionary, thanks. Some of the finer points of your penetrating analysis might baffle our readers, so allow me to expand on your dissection. Basically, everything on the web divides into two things: &quot;stuff&quot; and &quot;pornorgraphy.&quot; Stuff may stand for text, or it could stand for the things indicated by text, or better yet, it is the opposite (abstract) extremity of &quot;pornorgraphy&quot;. Pornorgraphy (a key term in the epistemology of Dr. Bob) is the state of grace, or the grace that the laborious use of the hand will cast on the [noumenon], which confers &quot;meaning&quot;. There is on the one hand (the empty hand) just plain meaningless stuff -- or drivel, or poppycock, or balderdash -- and in the other hand... something much smaller. But the small and often shriveled [noumenon] is made large -- made actual phenomenon or &quot;experience&quot; -- by... pornorgraphy: herein lieth meaning, or better, meaningfulness. Pornorgraphy may be shortlived but it can be endlessly replayed for those of superior intelligence who seek to maintain an enlightened posture apart from the virtual and grotesque limitlessness of the web. 

I sense that for you, Bob, poetry amounts to either stuff or pornorgraphy, but I&#039;m inclined to debate whether pornorgraphy (assuming that it is the highest level which poetry can reach) can really equate to the types of poetry I know. Admittedly my understanding of poetics is limited -- far beneath your own subtle mind -- and really, maybe I&#039;m too in love with conjecture and &quot;stuff&quot; to really get it. But it seems to me that pornorgraphy is essentially limited, while being, paradoxically, limitless on the web: this is a problematical situation that, I aver, would not correspond to poetry. While you believe in a division of gradually etiolated powers -- stuff and porn -- I tend to think that poetry reconciles stuff and porn quite nicely and will even reduce them to fragments of a world infinitely more complex than the sum of these two. While you appear to find pornorgraphy a sacrosanct economy worthy of your precious time apart from parodying other people&#039;s carefully thought out works, I have found it to be about as satisfying as eating a double cheeseburger at McDonald&#039;s: at first with hopeless lust, afterwards with utter soul-destroying dejection. Poetry just doesn&#039;t do this for me: it does more, much more, and it lasts centuries longer, is eons wider. Its orgasm -- its eruption -- holds forth severe authenticity, and the lustre of its body -- its form, its curvature -- is no different from that of a living human body: poetry is material, odor, &lt;em&gt;tierra&lt;/em&gt;. I suggest you try it, rather &lt;em&gt;that &lt;/em&gt;than through a &lt;em&gt;screen&lt;/em&gt;; but if you still don&#039;t get what the hell I mean, try reading Juan Rulfo&#039;s &lt;em&gt;Pedro Páramo&lt;/em&gt;.

(Judging by the professionalism of your parody, I wonder if you would be so kind as to forward some links to more of your work, you know, when you&#039;re not stuck flexing the smallest muscle of your body? By the look of your email, it seems that your vocation is scouring the web for misconstrued pompous writings and setting them aright with your judicious editorials. Unfortunately, I could find no trace of your pamphlets elsewhere.) 

I confess finally that the complex abstractions of pornorgraphy mystify me quite a bit and I&#039;m not &quot;read&quot; enough to understand its intricacies. You clearly understand more about it than I do since you were able to infer it in my writing, somehow, probably through mystical techniques unknown to me. But then again, maybe my work doesn&#039;t deserve the grander metaphysical label of being pornorgraphic because it is too much about boring unsensational meaningless stuff? Next time I finish writing a post, instead of kicking back with a glass of whiskey and watching the films of Walerian Borowczyk, I&#039;ll try to humble myself and sit down to that catalogue of pornorgraphy you seem to favor so highly. Morgan le Fay was it?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear &#8220;Bob&#8221;: thanks for your gracious, lovingly crafted parody! I see that you read my post quite carefully and managed to filter out all the rubbish from the gold. I admit that the cleverest reduction is: &#8220;Education can be walking around and eating dirt. Back in the day, people didn’t get paid to write no poems. So they ate dirt, and were educated.&#8221; Next time I should use a dictionary, thanks. Some of the finer points of your penetrating analysis might baffle our readers, so allow me to expand on your dissection. Basically, everything on the web divides into two things: &#8220;stuff&#8221; and &#8220;pornorgraphy.&#8221; Stuff may stand for text, or it could stand for the things indicated by text, or better yet, it is the opposite (abstract) extremity of &#8220;pornorgraphy&#8221;. Pornorgraphy (a key term in the epistemology of Dr. Bob) is the state of grace, or the grace that the laborious use of the hand will cast on the [noumenon], which confers &#8220;meaning&#8221;. There is on the one hand (the empty hand) just plain meaningless stuff &#8212; or drivel, or poppycock, or balderdash &#8212; and in the other hand&#8230; something much smaller. But the small and often shriveled [noumenon] is made large &#8212; made actual phenomenon or &#8220;experience&#8221; &#8212; by&#8230; pornorgraphy: herein lieth meaning, or better, meaningfulness. Pornorgraphy may be shortlived but it can be endlessly replayed for those of superior intelligence who seek to maintain an enlightened posture apart from the virtual and grotesque limitlessness of the web. </p>
<p>I sense that for you, Bob, poetry amounts to either stuff or pornorgraphy, but I&#8217;m inclined to debate whether pornorgraphy (assuming that it is the highest level which poetry can reach) can really equate to the types of poetry I know. Admittedly my understanding of poetics is limited &#8212; far beneath your own subtle mind &#8212; and really, maybe I&#8217;m too in love with conjecture and &#8220;stuff&#8221; to really get it. But it seems to me that pornorgraphy is essentially limited, while being, paradoxically, limitless on the web: this is a problematical situation that, I aver, would not correspond to poetry. While you believe in a division of gradually etiolated powers &#8212; stuff and porn &#8212; I tend to think that poetry reconciles stuff and porn quite nicely and will even reduce them to fragments of a world infinitely more complex than the sum of these two. While you appear to find pornorgraphy a sacrosanct economy worthy of your precious time apart from parodying other people&#8217;s carefully thought out works, I have found it to be about as satisfying as eating a double cheeseburger at McDonald&#8217;s: at first with hopeless lust, afterwards with utter soul-destroying dejection. Poetry just doesn&#8217;t do this for me: it does more, much more, and it lasts centuries longer, is eons wider. Its orgasm &#8212; its eruption &#8212; holds forth severe authenticity, and the lustre of its body &#8212; its form, its curvature &#8212; is no different from that of a living human body: poetry is material, odor, <em>tierra</em>. I suggest you try it, rather <em>that </em>than through a <em>screen</em>; but if you still don&#8217;t get what the hell I mean, try reading Juan Rulfo&#8217;s <em>Pedro Páramo</em>.</p>
<p>(Judging by the professionalism of your parody, I wonder if you would be so kind as to forward some links to more of your work, you know, when you&#8217;re not stuck flexing the smallest muscle of your body? By the look of your email, it seems that your vocation is scouring the web for misconstrued pompous writings and setting them aright with your judicious editorials. Unfortunately, I could find no trace of your pamphlets elsewhere.) </p>
<p>I confess finally that the complex abstractions of pornorgraphy mystify me quite a bit and I&#8217;m not &#8220;read&#8221; enough to understand its intricacies. You clearly understand more about it than I do since you were able to infer it in my writing, somehow, probably through mystical techniques unknown to me. But then again, maybe my work doesn&#8217;t deserve the grander metaphysical label of being pornorgraphic because it is too much about boring unsensational meaningless stuff? Next time I finish writing a post, instead of kicking back with a glass of whiskey and watching the films of Walerian Borowczyk, I&#8217;ll try to humble myself and sit down to that catalogue of pornorgraphy you seem to favor so highly. Morgan le Fay was it?</p>
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		<title>By: Bob</title>
		<link>http://www.hydramag.com/2010/03/07/the-old-math-of-poetry-part-one/#comment-2872</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Mar 2010 05:30:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thehydramag.com/?p=3084#comment-2872</guid>
		<description>Poetry&#039;s about stuff.  This is a trend, because people also like stuff, and the Internet.  The Internet knows things.


Poems link people to people and stuff, and will one day be on a screen. This guy I know wrote something about it. More poetry is being written today because of the Internet and stuff. This guy Aplaugh calls this “the new math of poetry.” 


Alpaugh thinks a lot about all this poetry being published and those &quot;fancy&quot; best of books, since they obviously only publish their friends and cousins. This sucks because there are some people out there who are totally great writers surrounded by other not so great writers and so they don&#039;t get published by their &quot;friends&quot; and their &quot;cousins.&quot; And, we all know, in the history of writing the best writers didn&#039;t have friends or cousins.


This upsets Aplaugh. But I ask, what about the &quot;old math&quot; of poetry, when &quot;metrics&quot; was spelled with a &quot;k?&quot; Back when it was about people and stuff but there wasn&#039;t a link to Jenna Jameson&#039;s &quot;best of&quot; catalogue, you know, the one her cousin did?


People still like stuff. Poetry is now written by the educated. Education can be walking around and eating dirt. Back in the day, people didn&#039;t get paid to write no poems. So they ate dirt, and were educated.

Clearly, this wasn&#039;t a great living or education, so poets got a little pissy, which was good. Starving was inspiring. If a poet is starving and still wants to write, he clearly has a good education. Aplaugh says the problem with poetry on the Internet is Jenna Jameson&#039;s cousin&#039;s catalogue. This is causing people to write bad, distracted poems not even about stuff.

My friend wrote a poem that I will now publish but I do not have any pornorgraphy:

(friends poem blah blah blah you&#039;re the enemy not the publishing house)

The “impulse” my friend the editor of this website speaks of is the feeling after the eating of the dirt. The impulse is one that


(more poem down here)


“travels lightly along the latitudes“:


(and some more poem. What kind of friend interrupts someone&#039;s freely published poem on the Internet not about stuff?)

To travel light along the latitudes: to eat a lot of dirt from a lot of places! Sorry I have to stop writing, there&#039;s some Fay Regan porn calling my name.


End parody.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Poetry&#8217;s about stuff.  This is a trend, because people also like stuff, and the Internet.  The Internet knows things.</p>
<p>Poems link people to people and stuff, and will one day be on a screen. This guy I know wrote something about it. More poetry is being written today because of the Internet and stuff. This guy Aplaugh calls this “the new math of poetry.” </p>
<p>Alpaugh thinks a lot about all this poetry being published and those &#8220;fancy&#8221; best of books, since they obviously only publish their friends and cousins. This sucks because there are some people out there who are totally great writers surrounded by other not so great writers and so they don&#8217;t get published by their &#8220;friends&#8221; and their &#8220;cousins.&#8221; And, we all know, in the history of writing the best writers didn&#8217;t have friends or cousins.</p>
<p>This upsets Aplaugh. But I ask, what about the &#8220;old math&#8221; of poetry, when &#8220;metrics&#8221; was spelled with a &#8220;k?&#8221; Back when it was about people and stuff but there wasn&#8217;t a link to Jenna Jameson&#8217;s &#8220;best of&#8221; catalogue, you know, the one her cousin did?</p>
<p>People still like stuff. Poetry is now written by the educated. Education can be walking around and eating dirt. Back in the day, people didn&#8217;t get paid to write no poems. So they ate dirt, and were educated.</p>
<p>Clearly, this wasn&#8217;t a great living or education, so poets got a little pissy, which was good. Starving was inspiring. If a poet is starving and still wants to write, he clearly has a good education. Aplaugh says the problem with poetry on the Internet is Jenna Jameson&#8217;s cousin&#8217;s catalogue. This is causing people to write bad, distracted poems not even about stuff.</p>
<p>My friend wrote a poem that I will now publish but I do not have any pornorgraphy:</p>
<p>(friends poem blah blah blah you&#8217;re the enemy not the publishing house)</p>
<p>The “impulse” my friend the editor of this website speaks of is the feeling after the eating of the dirt. The impulse is one that</p>
<p>(more poem down here)</p>
<p>“travels lightly along the latitudes“:</p>
<p>(and some more poem. What kind of friend interrupts someone&#8217;s freely published poem on the Internet not about stuff?)</p>
<p>To travel light along the latitudes: to eat a lot of dirt from a lot of places! Sorry I have to stop writing, there&#8217;s some Fay Regan porn calling my name.</p>
<p>End parody.</p>
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		<title>By: Jose-Luis Moctezuma</title>
		<link>http://www.hydramag.com/2010/03/07/the-old-math-of-poetry-part-one/#comment-2871</link>
		<dc:creator>Jose-Luis Moctezuma</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Mar 2010 14:19:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thehydramag.com/?p=3084#comment-2871</guid>
		<description>Mr. Alpaugh: your words are warmly received. My deepest gratitude. I dwelled on your article for a few days until the object at hand stood clear in front of me; in Wallace Stevens&#039; words: &quot;We must endure our thoughts all night, until the bright obvious stands motionless in cold.&quot; I have you to thank for the fire that surged afterward. I can only hope that my article will draw more attention to your own!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mr. Alpaugh: your words are warmly received. My deepest gratitude. I dwelled on your article for a few days until the object at hand stood clear in front of me; in Wallace Stevens&#8217; words: &#8220;We must endure our thoughts all night, until the bright obvious stands motionless in cold.&#8221; I have you to thank for the fire that surged afterward. I can only hope that my article will draw more attention to your own!</p>
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		<title>By: David Alpaugh</title>
		<link>http://www.hydramag.com/2010/03/07/the-old-math-of-poetry-part-one/#comment-2870</link>
		<dc:creator>David Alpaugh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Mar 2010 02:28:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thehydramag.com/?p=3084#comment-2870</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve been waiting on the shore like the fellow in Robert Frost&#039;s &quot;The Most of It,&quot; waiting for an &quot;original response&quot; to my article &quot;The New Math of Poetry.&quot; It&#039;s not just that you are one of the few who understand my argument; it&#039;s how you use it as a springboard to widen, deepen, extend, and explore the implications of what I&#039;m saying that leads me to believe I haven&#039;t wasted my time. To quote Frost again, &quot;It&#039;s knowing what to do with things that counts.&quot; Thanks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve been waiting on the shore like the fellow in Robert Frost&#8217;s &#8220;The Most of It,&#8221; waiting for an &#8220;original response&#8221; to my article &#8220;The New Math of Poetry.&#8221; It&#8217;s not just that you are one of the few who understand my argument; it&#8217;s how you use it as a springboard to widen, deepen, extend, and explore the implications of what I&#8217;m saying that leads me to believe I haven&#8217;t wasted my time. To quote Frost again, &#8220;It&#8217;s knowing what to do with things that counts.&#8221; Thanks.</p>
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		<title>By: Johannes Climacus</title>
		<link>http://www.hydramag.com/2010/03/07/the-old-math-of-poetry-part-one/#comment-2869</link>
		<dc:creator>Johannes Climacus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Mar 2010 01:21:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thehydramag.com/?p=3084#comment-2869</guid>
		<description>Monumental piece, puts the whole matter into a quite a context.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Monumental piece, puts the whole matter into a quite a context.</p>
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